making money from woodworking

[Will1987]

OK here we go, slap me in the face with reality.

HOW EASY OR DIFFICULT IS IT TO MAKE A DECENT INCOME WITH WOODWORKING?

AND HOW WOULD YOU RECOMMEND MARKETING IT?

FINALLY WHAT TYPES OF ITEMS SELL THE BEST?

I guess one more question I could add is - is ebay good? From what I can see its not too great.
However I see that coffee tables and whatnot do sell, and that I could make a clear profit if I got reasonable bids.

Anyone who's tried selling their stuff can respond here. I just want some general experiences and opinions.

Will

[Don]

Hey, Will. That's a 64 million dollar question. You wrote "income" instead of "living." We'll assume you mean more than hobby money.

This is my take on reality. When I was younger and full of beans, I made a pretty good living doing woodworking. Cabinets, furniture, molding, millwork, etc. During high school and a new marriage, I didn't need to make very much money. I worked for someone else and got the benefit of well rounded knowledge in the trade. This I believe is almost essential. Woodworking covers so much ground that you need to be versatile.

We all want to make a wooden widget and have it sell really well. The problem with that is that many can do woodworking and copy your widget. Pretty soon the price of widgets drops because everyone is invested in making them.

If you have a good background or knowledge in woodworking, you can apply it to many different areas of the trade when a customer comes calling. I began my own business after eight years in the trade. After the initial fear, I was a little PO'd at myself for not doing it sooner. I was doing okay. Then I hired a few GREAT employees the company really took off.

Now here's the rub and all can add this in their life lesson's book.

Woodworking is a trade, just like air conditioning, car repair, electrical work, plumbing. What this means is that people are paying you for your time, your knowledge, your materials and expenses. People are only willing to pay a reasonable amount for your time. There are only so many hours in the day. One might think this equates into a reasonable living. But there's a flaw in the reasoning. Who's going to get the work? Who's going to sell the customers? Who's going to fetch materials, draw plans, sweep the floor, fix the machines; do all of it?

The answer is - you. If you are working alone anyway. And the minute you start a business, everyone has their hand out. Everyone.

Now with that being said, get a few employees and the business picture changes. I made a ton of money and had the best time in my life with only 3-4 employees. Then I got greedy and sold half the business and went big-time. That just means that you can fail big-time. Which I did, five years later. The court trustees were kind enough to sell my underwear back to me.

I've been working for someone else since then. It's very humbling.

Anyway, back to your question. I don't know what the answer is to that. You'll get a different one from everyone here. The work that MMwood does borders on art, Turn Two's work is art, I'm sure they get more for their work. (I hope) That's breaking out of the "trades" into the "arts" where more money can be commanded. There's even some that can make money in kitchen cabinets, something that's very tough.

Depends on your market as well. If you're tied to housing, well you had a few good years didn't you? How is it now? The toilet. I knew guys that specialized in staircases, even spirals. They did real good. Focus sometimes, is a good thing.

Anyway, I'm off track. This can be a good discussion, and it's come up enough that it really needs it's own forum. What do you think guys?

dawjr

[Danno30008]

Hey Don:

Man, thanks for your gut level honesty.. been down that road of "Big business" and the court trustees sold me back my underwear..:) Guess they couldn't find anything else to do with them..

Anyway, will1987, I thought I could make some extra money while enjoying my hobby again and unfortunately, I still don't know how to get to the right market. I have tried a few craft shows because I like making cutting boards, knive holders and picture frames.. Mostly the boards though. So, I put this love and work into boards that I see on line for $175-200, so I list them at $130 -150 and all I get is "Will you take $40"...I would rather use them as fire wood than give it away for $40 or even $50.. I think the guys that go to these craft sales think they are at a garrage sale and are just looking for something cheap. :mad:
I know my items are to a limited market, but getting your name out there is going to be one of the biggest problems you might face.
Please keep us posted on how you do and any new ideas you might have for marketing.
Good luck and take care
Dan

[Terry Mac]

Will, this is indeed a very tough and intriguing question. I still think its possible to create a market, but I've had no luck with it.


That's all I got.



Good luck.

[woodman43]

I currently use my woodworking as a second income.
Like I have said in other threads, most of my income comes from contracting.
If the woodworking business takes off to the point it will turn out a living, then I will quit contracting.
Unless you have found a high demand for your work, use it as a second income, not a living.

[Will1987]

Hey guys. Interesting to hear your experiences. I'm in favor of originality. I think I'll keep working that angle of it. I'll let you know how it goes. But keep posting on this topic.


woodman if you use it as a second income could you expand on that a little and let me know what types of things you make and how you market them?

Will

[thekl0wn]

Probably about 90% of my woodworking "profit" goes right back into the maintenance... Like bits, etc. The other 10% goes along with out-of-pocket money to fund other wood projects.

So, all-in-all, for me, no matter how much I were to make off of it, it would still cost me! :D

[dpmcreations]

For many years I made a respectably good income from wood... I started in construction and did it as a hobby.. I was fortunate enough that I did furniture on the side... I was also fortunate that I hooked into several very I MEAN VERY good craft/art shows... Expensive but worth it... I did well on those shows.. In fact, I worked many crappy shows and only worked three or so good ones... But I made a living... Of course I worked hard for that living.. Moving ahead a few years, I met my now ex-wife and went back into construction and furniture and cabinetry full time.. Did great until the ex-wife took everything... And I mean even the slop in the bottom of the trap at the bottom of the kitchen sink..

Now I am on a rebound... Again.. But there are markets out there... I got a great start... Very lucky.... So here we go up hill with the choo choo train... You can make a living... It is tough to start, but work with it... Ironically, I have helped several people start out and worked with them to get going... What part of the country are you in.... What do you do your most work in... and where would you go to sell your product... and how long and at what level can you sustain yourself if you go for it... Have a great time and Drop me a note, I can go in depth further and maybe help you out...

Duane
dpmcreations@yahoo.com

[woodman43]

Hey guys. Interesting to hear your experiences. I'm in favor of originality. I think I'll keep working that angle of it. I'll let you know how it goes. But keep posting on this topic.


woodman if you use it as a second income could you expand on that a little and let me know what types of things you make and how you market them?

Will

Will
Most of my woodwork are request from remodeling customers who want something different than store bought China made crap.
I don't use any advertising other than business cards that I hand out every chance I get. Post them on bulitin boards. But actually most of my work comes from word of mouth. Once you get your name known in a certain area it will take off as long as you pay specific attention to each customer.
I tried advertising before with newspapers, phonebook, etc. To expensive when you caompare it to how many leads that turn into actual work.
Hope this helps you a little.:)

[Don]

Duane and Will are on to it.

Will, you are right on about the advertising. The phone book is a waste of valuable cash. Word of mouth and previous customers will ususally give you all you can stand.

dawjr

[mmwood_1]

I started out as a teenager making jewelry boxes, completely engraved with all kinds of wildlife scenes, selling them at craft shows for practically nothing($20 for a box that took me 13 hours!) and having to be insulted by people offering me $5. Then I got recruited by a cabinet shop when they saw my work on display at the library. Did that for 2 years making a horrible hourly wage ($5/hr) because I was passionate about woodworking. Quit for 11 years(became a baker) and then got back to it because it feeds something in me that nothing else does. I've now had my own business for 14 years. For 13 1/2 of those years I did not advertise. I built up my reputation very slowly, but steadfastly. One job at a time. I'll tell you, my first year, I pulled in $9000. That was to support a family of 7! I became a master scrounge, I'll tell you.

Now I have a web site, as of a few months ago. Haven't gotten any work from it yet, so I don't know if it's worth anything in advertising. But, I charge time and materials now. It took me a long time to feel confident that my work was worth that. Truly, I was my own greatest barrier to cash flow. I never had any cash, myself, so I had a hard time asking someone else to fork over a lot of cash for anything I built. It was difficult for me to comprehend that most of these people made 10-20 times the cash that I made.

Well, I got me a fine woman about 5 years ago, and she has been the greatest coach in that regard. The last few years, my income is steadily rising. Not great, but I'm not stressing about the next month's rent any longer. I am no longer afraid of being one of the most expensive guys in town. I don't get all the jobs I estimate, but the ones I do get are infinitely more satisfying because I am getting paid in full for them. And the people who do hire me seem to really appreciate working with me, and the work that I do for them.

So, I'm getting there. Yes, It's been my sole income for 14 years, but I minimalized my needs to make that happen. Now I feel that I've paid my dues, and I'm ok with charging more. Whew!

As for what Don said about my work(thanks, Don!) bordering on art, well, sometimes I get those kinds of jobs, but more than half of my work is a bit more mundane. Kitchen cabinets, bookcases, etc., but more simple styles.

[Don]

Hey, Mark - Your story is very typical of the person that has a boatload of talent, skill and perseverance. This is how many people start, including me. Unfortunately, in the beginning, we are so enamored that anyone would pay us for something we love doing we really don't think about what is a fair price. Budding woodworkers, or any business guy for that matter should take a minimalist business course very early. Failing that one needs to think about all of the costs involved in producing work. We have a few contractors here and they can attest to the importance of a good estimate.

You are essentially selling your time in woodworking. But there is only so much that someone is willing to pay for your time, since it is a trade. Here are a few areas that need to be factored into every price consideration.

I always worked to a "man hour" cost. That means, If I've got one man in the shop, and I only have his labor to sell, and he works 40 hours a week, how much would I have to charge for an hour of his work? To find that out we heap a lot of burden on his poor back to find out what that cost is. These can be; rent, his wage and tax burden, his benefits, my wage, burden and benefits, utilities, phones, advertising, trucks, fuel, etc.

You might come up with a figure like 45.00 an hour to break even in the business. Remember, you are selling a product, if you are not part of the process of actually making the product you are overhead and riding on the backs of the workers. So in this example we find that, if we sell all of our worker's time, the shop brings in $7800.00 per month. (52*40*45/12) Okay, so let's assume that you need exactly $7800 per month to pay all the bills, you did okay, right? Not really. But more on that below.

Now let's look at the picture with two, three and four more employees. You still have the same fixed costs, but now you have the increased amount of their wages and burden. Let's say that each additional man costs the company $600 per week. So now you have a "nut" of $10,400; $13,000; $15,600. Now, the picture changes dramatically, our new shop cost per hour is $30 if we have two employees, $25 with two and $22.50 with four. We've spread our fixed costs over the backs of several workers. When I had my own business and got to four employees, the fun really began.

But just because our shop cost goes down, does that mean we give it back to the customer? That's up to you and the market - I say no, because you have to look at that one man cost and go from there, $45.00 an hour is not an unreasonable rate. Call a plumber, take your car in for work, go to the doctor - what are they charging?

Now, with a known shop cost you add the particulars for a project, how much shop time is it going to take, cost of each material (and appropriate waste factors), drawing - engineering time, installation costs, etc. You will come up with a number. Theoretically this is our break even price for a project. Then we add the percentage of profit we want the company to make at the end of the day. 10%? 15%? You decide.

I was general manager of a $12 million casework company for 13 years. It was not uncommon to net only 1, 2 or 3 percent per year. A testament to my leadership (or lack of)? As you've heard before, it takes a village. If a project is estimated poorly, production will not be able to overcome the numbers in many cases. Not knowing what your costs are will get you in trouble.

Anyway, I would always break a job down into minutes required for each operation, I would adhere to that as I worked the project. If the budget was busted on one operation, we made it up somewhere else, or tried to. Knowing what the budget is, is a first step.

Sounds like a lot of work, huh? Not really. I'm a spreadsheet junkie and I encourage all to make that leap at least. I have an excel sheet for cabinet and job estimating, I'll see if I can find it.

This same process holds true for hand carved jewelry boxes or a full blown casework shop.

I wrote this quickly, others may have more points to add.

It may be more that someone is willing to pay, but does that mean you should subsidize their project? Are you that nice? Are we that hungry? Tough questions.

dawjr

[dpmcreations]

Like was mentioned...and I will reiterate this for you... Once you get a start, Word of mouth is the cheapest and by far the best advertisement that you can have... Alot of times, you may not run through as many hoops because the customer already knows that they WILL get a good job.. And dang it man always make the customer feel that they are very important... Customer service is seemingly on it's death throws these days... Good customer service has gotten me more work than I want to recount....

[Will1987]

I have to admit - building cabinets and so on for people is not exactly what I'm trying to do, though I would do it if it came my way. I've been an of off the books kinda handyman remodeling guy for 8 years. I just barely made a living at it. Maybe its the economy up here in north western new york, I donno. But that's kinda why I went into finer stuff. What I'm really looking to do is make interesting, creative and original designs - furniture and stuff or whatever and sell them. Interestingly my father was a sculptor, painter, and freelance writer who got two nonfiction books published. He studied with a famous artist in Paris named Zadkin after WW2. My dad in fact was in the navy in WW2 when he was 17. He had all these cool, usually mathematically interesting, original, often geometric things made out of everything you can think of - found items, wire, cardboard, wood, plastic, metal - hanging around in his apartments or studios. I didn't set out to copy him but it seems it's happening that way. So I guess I inherited a bent for the sculptural. And the originality.
Thanks Duane for your reply and I'd definitely like to talk to you further. I wonder if there's some way the we, everyone on this forum, could help EACHOTHER market things somehow. Form some group website maybe and sell our stuff? Or attach a section to THIS website where we could sell stuff? Or at least maybe consult on some things or refer customers. Seems like something to consider, eh?
But yeah if has anything to say about the original design/production/marketing and sales sorta work rather than custom remodeling sorta work go for it.

Will:D

[old_guy]

I've been an of off the books kinda handyman remodeling guy for 8 years.

If you're going to cheat on your taxes, it's probably not a good idea to talk about it on a public website that also includes your name and residence. The government pays a bounty for turning in tax cheats.

[Will1987]

Hehehe. You might be right. Then again an "off the books kinda handyman" is similar to saying "low rent kinda guy." It proves nothing. You'd have to dig up a lot more than that on somebody to get them in trouble. Ha I can see it now: "Yeah he used the words 'off the books kinda handyman...'" "OK thank you sir for the information, we'll get right on it." :D