Big combination machines, worth the money?

[davluri88@]

these machines are very expensive, but they save a lot of space. like you can operate a business out of less than 1,000 feet. but which ones are worth the money? I have issues with my Felder. want to hear the rant?

[Don]

Hey, Dave. Welcome to the forum. And please, rant on. If you can educate one person it will have been worth it.

Let me guess, the machine is a wonder of engineering, the salesman/operator worked it flawlessly, so much so you wondered how you could possibly do without one. You get one and start to put it to work for you. You quickly find out that; you spend most of your time setting up for one use or the other, each portion of the machine doesn't do it's task as as well as a stand alone machine would, and you have to buy their attachments, tooling and jigs to get the most out of it. (at an inflated price) If there is an mechanical or electrical issue, the entire workshop (or that portion) is down. And the creme de la creme, it costs just as much as the individual machines would have in the beginning.

I remember the Shopsmith, which is still around I think. People see the demonstrations and think, this will fit in the garage and, "Honey, now I can make those bookshelves you want." These people are usually new to woodworking. What they don't realize is the monumental effort that is needed in planning every step, if you don't, you spend all of you time making transitions on the machine. It takes many years for even a seasoned professional to be able to do that. They get frustrated, the thing lives in the corner of the garage with a rag on it. Then its rolled out for a garage sale and another "unsuspecting" buys it.

Combination machines offer promises that are hard won by the owners.

Now that being said, I'm sure there are place where they would be golden, say, on board ships, extremely small hobby spaces or making a shop out of the hall closet. But, they are cool.

dawjr

[Dagster]

I agree with Don, way too much time spent setting up for each task and once you have set up for that task guess what? You realize you forgot to make a cut with the other setup so you have to go back. I find this happens even with my single task machines. Dado's for instance. You think you have finished your dado cuts and change the blade back only to find you forgot one or two and have to get all shimmed back.

[Terry Mac]

Combination machines are dangerous and a hassle. I used to run a General Electric Combo machine with lathe and sander. Really disliked having both operations running when trying to do work. Or would have to un-belt one or the other just to have one operation running. Big hassle.

[davluri888]

Don has major good points, but I want to go further to save people time and dough. After Felder charges a large wad of dough for the machine and rheems you for every attachment (needed just to function) the provide crappy service. Instead of coming out and looking at why their machine just won't stay true, they offer to talk you through the adjustments on the phone. This guy at Felder was telling me how to replace the gear that raised and lowered the saw motor of the multi-function machine and neglected to tell me over the f'ing phone that the design was so poor that when you get to the gear the motor falls off its mount and crashes to the floor. nice! then he says,: oh, I thought that model had a safety bolt in it, sorry about that. And the gear stripped because a bolt backed out of the shaft and stripped the whole deal by backing into part of the assembly. And that's the bad design. the whole machine is nuts and bolts, like a cheap Taiwan machine, not castings with taps that hold together and keep tolerances. And here's the real topper. The guy delivering the machine shows up at my small shop (I told them I had no fork lift) with the machine (heavy mother and bulky) in the back of a pick-up truck. He proceeds to borrow a 2X12 from me and tries to slide the machine to the ground. the board snaps and the machine crashes to the pavement. nice. then he tells me he's having a crappy divorce and would I please not tell the manager. then he has to go, without truing the machine, because it is late. he never comes back and neither does anyone else. So years later I am sick of truing every aspect of the piece of ----, so I call Felder and say that I am sick of fixing the machine they dropped on the cement and would they send someone out to true the arm that supports the sliding table as it is variably too high and too low. they say that since I have no ongoing record of complaints with respect to their dropping the machine, and that they would never deliver a mult-machine in a pick-up truck, that they can not help me. NO GOOD DEED GOES UN-PUNISHED. another manager said that she could not help me because: "I never should have accepted the machine." I told her that her employee should have returned to work and explained the delivery issues in detail on his own. Soooooooo, Felder sucks and don't get sucked in and remember, friends don't let friends by Felder. phew, that's the beginning of purging this miserable experience that cost me over $20K

[Don]

Put your head between your knees and take a deep breath. There, now you feel better.

I know it's very good to write out your frustrations, sometimes I have to do it and just put them in a drawer, it does purge my thoughts as well.

Okay, with that said - looks like you've got a machine that you are going to have to live with for whatever reason. Let's figure out how to fix it if you are planning on keeping it. You must have thought it would be what you wanted/needed at one time at least.

Unfortunately, I do believe that any machine that has two moving parts has a personality. Your job it to get to know that personality if you really want to make it sing. In some cases that means that you must become a machine man or a mechanic.

This machine must have a large manual with exploded drawings and schematics. You may have to bite the bullet and study the drawings until you know implicitly how this thing goes together. Then you have to really breakdown the problems you are having with it to their lowest common denominator. What parts and assemblies support the areas that your are having problems with? Follow a logical path and proof that these parts are in tolerance.

I don't care what machine manufacturer made the machine. The common denominator with all is that they are using machines to make machines. Today's machines are very good, as well as most of the operators and the quality controls. I would be very surprised if you had something that could not be tuned properly. When it was dropped, either castings broke, or they didn't, parts bent, those should and can be proofed.

How long have you had it is it still under any warranty? Even if not, you paid 20K, it would be in your best interest to pay to have a factory technician come to your shop to get it tuned up. Every machine company should have those. If not there are plenty of woodworking techs that travel and rework, rebuild and tune high end machines. Let me know if you can't find any. All is not lost.

Don't be scared to tinker with it at this point. I've trained many guys to repair stuff and the first thing I tell them when they are afraid they are going to damage something is, "It's already broken, take the opportunity to learn more about it." You will need to learn about this machine if the two of you are going to have a lasting relationship.

I've taken apart and put back together machines costing up wards of 200k. One of the burdens of being a woodworker is knowing your machines. I've often said the modern woodworker is simply a machinist, only their medium is wood. The more machines you have the more this is true. Especially true of combination machines.

I'm sure this would be a beautiful machine with a little of the right TLC. Okay, you hate the company, they treated you dirty - but you've got the machine now. And you just may have to make nice with them for repair parts, knowledge and updates. Turn this into a good thing now that you've got it off your chest.

Good luck, we'll help any way we can.

All the best, Don